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Oct 9, 2024
A Numbers Game | October 9, 2024 | Hour 2
A Numbers Game | October 9, 2024 | Hour 2
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44:35
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Transcript
0:01
The numbers tell the story, they always do. So I'm those idiots who believe in analytics. This is a Numbers Game with Gil Alexander on VSiN.
0:09
Hour number two of a Numbers Game at VSiN, the sports betting network, vsin.com, Game Plus, iHeartRadio, YouTube TV. Are we taking a sin this morning? I am grateful. It's Gil Alexander, Kelly Bidlin alongside.
0:20
Uh, still to come this hour, uh, Spanky will join us, the, uh, the creator of BetBash, and of course, uh, the great podcast that he does.
0:30
We will talk to Spanky briefly about that, and he will be alongside Shawn Fluarty, who's a, uh, legislator from the state of West Virginia, who, uh, wants to talk about the bettor's voice, what bettors can do to actually, you know, have impact on what's going on in this industry.
0:46
Limits, um, all kinds of things that affect bettors. What your voice can actually accomplish, where you can actually, um, you know, have impact with your voice itself. It's called The Bettor's Voice.
0:59
We'll talk to those two about that. And then before that, um, Dean Sisson, the CEO of Prophet X, will join us.
1:06
Sweepstakes betting, a whole nother thing that's going on in states that don't necessarily have legalized betting as we know it, and yet we're talking about real cash money here.
1:17
Jason Weingarten also coming up on the hour. But first, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for Win Totals Wednesdays on a Numbers Game, and it goes a little something like this.
1:27
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1:58
That's F-O-R thepeople.com/bestbets or pound law, pound 529 from your cell. This is a paid advertisement. All right, Kelly, uh, we started this last week, and, uh, I had three unders, you had two unders.
2:13
I just wanna sort of, like, give a brief update on the three unders that I have. Is that allowed? Are we allowed to do that? Yeah.
2:18
Uh, I had, uh, under Miami seven and a half, under Jacksonville six and a half, and under Pittsburgh nine and a half. Now, of those three, the Steelers were the one that lost. They lost to the Cowboys.
2:30
So their season win total, that was a big loss for that under nine and a half. Remember, I have a pre-flop, uh, on them, under eight and under seven and a half as well.
2:39
Uh, their adjusted season win total with that lo- with that loss goes right back down to their pre-flop eight and a half. Uh, so that looked to be a, that looks to be a very nice bet that, uh, I made last week as well.
2:51
So I'm all in on the Pittsburgh under every which way. Miami and Jacksonville both won, and you would think to yourself, "Oh, well, that probably went against you."
2:59
No, both of those numbers are still where they were, except the juice has been adjusted. But Miami is at, is still at seven and a half, and Jacksonville is still at six and a half, and I still like those bets.
3:10
And that's why you, you try to get ahead of, uh, you know, games that are fulcrum games, if you will, that will really move that, and, uh, have, have sort of the anticipation of what won't move if it goes against you.
3:23
So those, uh, I like all those. I have two overs today, sir. Would you like to update your two unders at all, or you, you don't wanna do that? Uh, yeah, no, I've got...
3:33
Well, mine, mine both, uh, kind of went the other way. So I did Cowboys. I was just kind of looking up the odds, 'cause it is interesting, like, uh, what you're talking about, how it moves.
3:40
So I did Cowboys under last week. So we were kind of [laughs] kind of heads up in that Cowboys-Steelers game. Cowboys lose, but then it was under- Cowboys won... Cowboys won, sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
3:50
It, uh, it was under nine and a half minus 135, and it's only minus 115 now is what I'm looking at, so that's a little interesting. And I had the Vikings under 11 and a half at minus 120.
4:03
I don't wanna include it again this week, but I think it's still fair play, because that one did jump up a full game- Yeah... up to 12 and a half, and you're still talking the under's minus 130.
4:12
It was minus 120 on the 11 and a half. So full game, I think that one would still be playable. All right. So I have two this week, and they're both overs. How about that?
4:21
The San Francisco 49ers over nine and a half minus 125. I stared long and hard at this one, too. Niner- Niners are two and three in your current standings.
4:31
Uh, y- all I'm trying to do is get eight wins now, eight wins, uh, in the final 12 ball games. So all I need to do here is go eight and four the rest of the way with the San Francisco 49ers.
4:43
And if you look at their schedule, uh, eight wins, not really asking that much, Kelly, in my humble opinion, uh, on the San Francisco 49ers. There's a lot of winnable games here, um, to just go eight and four.
4:56
And I know they've, again, they've, they've lost two games that they shouldn't have, but if you look at their, their drive metrics, if you look at what their win probabilities were late in those ball games, there's not really anything horrifically, um, bad about this football team or, or something to be horribly worried about.
5:13
Just to give you an example, I, I've got them, I like them this week at Seattle. That's the first thing. So that played a lot into the fact that if I want them to go eight and four, it correlates with that opinion.
5:24
Right. A- and that's important, right? Yes. Because with the Chiefs on deck, too, you could easily say, "Hey, I like this over, but it might make more sense to bet in two weeks."
5:33
But if you like the game this week- Yeah... then you go ahead and do it. They've got home games coming up against the Cowboys, against the Seahawks, the Bears, the Rams, and the Lions, a few of those definitely winnable.
5:44
They have road games, um, against the Bucs, uh, at the Cardinals late. Um, there's a bunch of g- at the Dolphins, by the way, uh, in addition to the Packers and the Bills on the road.
5:54
There's a bunch of ga- Eight and four is not a tremendous amount to ask of them, and so that's a, that's a play for me, the Niners over nine and a half.
6:01
And I'm going with the Commanders over at nine and a half, uh, with a little more juice than that at minus 165. And the Commanders are four and one, so I'm just asking them to go six and six the rest of the way.
6:14
Just want them to be 500 the rest of the way. And if you look at the Commanders' schedule, can they cobble together six more wins?
6:21
And when I say cobble, I almost feel like I'm offending this franchise, 'cause they don't have to cobble anything thus far. But let's say they lose to the Ravens this week.
6:28
They've got home games against the Panthers and Bears right after that, and then they're at the Giants and home against the Steelers. You can go three and one in that stretch, and that is not a stretch,
6:40
if I may use that word twice in two different ways. [laughs] Uh, and then after that, they've got the Titans at home, they got the Cowboys at home. Um, they do have division games coming up. I'm just...
6:49
You just want them to win six of these. Panthers, Bears, Giants, Steelers, uh, Titans, Eagles at home, and then you got all the others. I think that's doable for a team that you can't get off the field. You just can't.
7:05
He doesn't, uh, Jayden Daniels doesn't turn the ball over. Tress Way barely sees the field. I'll take the Commanders over, just gotta get 'em to 10 wins. Just asking 'em to go 500 the rest of the way. I like it.
7:16
Those were both, uh, two that I looked at pretty closely. Definitely the Niners one I was close to including myself. Uh, for me, went Ravens over and Dolphins under, which Dolphins was one of your plays- Mm-hmm...
7:28
last week. Yep. I think that, that I'm gonna start with that one, 'cause I, I just think there is a lot, uh, a lot that still applies here when you're talking about sev- seven and a half wins.
7:36
They got that win, um, last week in New England. But you're talking about a team right now that only has two wins on the year. Um, you're talking about you needing six to go over.
7:46
I think the biggest one about this, Gil, is just, uh, we never like to play the, the, the guess on injury games and when is Tua coming back, and that is a major factor with this Dolphins team going forward.
7:56
I think the bigger thing is when you just look at the end of this schedule, where, what are the chances that the Dolphins' season has become such a disaster near the ed- that when you, you get towards these la- uh, week 14, you know, week, even week 13, week 14, week 15, Packers, Jets, Texans, 49ers, I, is there a chance some of these guys, if they're dealing with injuries, just get kinda shut down for the season if it turns all that bad?
8:21
I think there's an outside possibility of stuff like that happening with this team towards the end of the season. So I, I agreed with your take on that one last week. Under seven and a half at plus 125 right now.
8:32
Um, I like that bet currently. And then the one over, uh, what, uh, I went with is the Ravens. This is a...
8:38
You know, we, we, we've had this conversation a couple times, Gil, but just h- uh, with, with, with different divisions, but man, how much has this division changed from what we thought during the pre-season, right?
8:48
The Bengals we still don't really know about. They at least seem to have a great offense, but the defense isn't all that great.
8:54
The Browns seem like one of the worst teams in the league right now, and the Steelers got a great defense. I don't really trust their, their offense.
9:01
So a lot about this, a lot of this for me is just thinking they're gonna be able to kinda work their way pretty easily through the AFC North, which I thought was the toughest division in football coming in.
9:10
But you got games, um, against the Broncos, still out- outside of the division, against the Chargers, against the Giants. Uh, so I think there's a lot of winnable games on this schedule.
9:20
Over 11 and a half at plus, uh, plus money sti- stuck out to me as a pretty nice bet at this point in the season. I like it. Adjusted season win totals.
9:29
Um, so what, what's interesting is we'll track all of these, and who knows by the end of the season how many positions we're going to have on how many different teams. Yeah. Uh, but right now I got a position on five.
9:40
You got a position on four, so love it. I think there's other... You know, we're gonna do these pretty much every week, so the, uh, I think we're even, some we'll have to, we might be doubling down on, too.
9:49
You know, I mean, like that, you know, the Dolphins you had a week ago I have- Yeah... this week. [laughs] It's kinda, I don't, I think it makes just as much sense to play it this week as it did last week.
9:56
Uh, we got tweets that beat in the book. I wanna read this one tweet here, Kelly. This is from, uh, this is from Charlie D USA number one.
10:03
He says, "Gil, how much do, does a tennis player's coach factor into your handicapping? Figure there had to be more coach-dependent players than others."
10:12
Uh, by the way, uh, vsyn.com/picks, all of the, uh, all of the picks from every host, every guest, every sport on the network at vsyn.com/picks for ser- for subscribers. Um, I went one and two on the overnight.
10:26
One and two on the overnight. They were all dogs. The dog that hit was plus 182, Hailey Baptiste. So even in the one and two, we barely lost anything.
10:34
And by the way, uh, one and two could have been a massive two and one, because a plus 230 dog- Mm-hmm...
10:40
Kamila Rakumova got to a third set tiebreaker against Leylah Fernandez, was up three love in the tiebreaker and gagged it. Uh, so we're seeing the ball well. But to answer your question, Charlie D, um, very rarely.
10:53
In, in fact, uh, do coaches matter to me? V- uh, almost never. Wi- with the rarest exception. I, I can, I'm trying to think just, um, [smacks lips]
11:02
uh, Elena Rybakina had a really weird relationship with her coach this year, and, uh, that probably, I, I probably thought about it when handicapping her matches.
11:13
I'm not sure that that was a determining factor, but it certainly was a thing in my head. Anything with Coco this year? Uh, not so mu- you know, Iga's now changing coaches. Yeah. Um, nothing really with Coco.
11:23
We're, I think Rybakina was the, was the best example of that. But now that you mention it, I mean, three of the top five tennis players [laughs] in the world- Yeah [laughs]...
11:32
on the ladies' side, all with, uh, with coaching changes. Uh, anyway, I always appreciate the, uh, feedback. Well- We'll get more of your tweets. Wimbledon losing line judges. See that this morning? I did not. Yeah.
11:42
Yeah. They're gone, apparently. Well, when we- Moving on to technology... when, when we get to the French Open and that happens- Right [laughs]... then that's news. I'm sorry, pizout. Coming back with Jason Weingart.
11:51
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12:06
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12:16
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12:28
This is from, uh, Michael Burns, who says, "Gil, the real ladies man. Splash of Old Spice and out on the town." I guess he was referring to my comment earlier Yeah.
12:35
Uh, Brendan and I were trying to figure out what would be the equivalent for, for your heyday. Like, like He-Man or, uh, something like that. T- well, Transformers, that was even too late for Gil, I think.
12:46
Transformers, robots in disguise. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that. Uh, but even before that it was, like, a, a old-school Justice League of America.
12:55
Like, we're old-school superheroes kind of stuff. Okay, okay. Um, Sam Lucara, "Power Rangers, Ninja Turtles, and things vibrating on Gil's thighs. What a week."
13:03
[laughs] Yeah, that's how it goes down here on the Numbers Game. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Uh, Johnny Ringo, "Kicking off hour two with Gil's Pokemon power ratings. Expected average." [laughs] That's right, totally.
13:14
Uh, Nevada Azer, "Hey Gil, I think Detroit," uh, talking about the Tigers, "hangs a number on Cobb today, and as long as Cease doesn't serve up a meatball to Shohei, the Padres wrap this series up tonight."
13:24
Well, I've been saying that about the Padres. I said this is the one that ends the quickest to me or is the most likely to end in four.
13:31
Um, I don't have as big of a feel of, uh, about the Detroit-Cleveland game this morning. You could tell me any outcome, I'd believe it. But I do think the Padres close out the Dodgers, uh, once again tonight.
13:41
Uh, 3JackH3131, "Uh, let's be serious for a minute. What would the line total be in on a, uh, uh, what would it be on a five f- uh, five-on-five Power Rangers versus Turtles plus Splinter basketball game?
13:54
Thanks for letting the show go off the rails for a bit. Always brings a laugh." Oh, man. You're qui- you're quite welcome. Uh, The Silent... What would it be? I don't know.
14:00
Uh, that's like s- well, that's, like, super powers. That's kinda like an Avengers situation, right? It's like super powers versus, like, an Iron Man super suit situation, you know? He's got...
14:09
'Cause I don't think the Power Rangers had any powers, right? Didn't they just have, like, suits that worked? You're asking me? I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know.
14:16
Silent Mike D, "Perhaps the massive amounts of bad coaching and decisions reinforces the narrative that Belichick/Brady/Lombardi were GOATs, and their success cannot be duplicated by wealthy owners without years and years of hard work."
14:28
I'm not sure what that refers to, uh, The Silent Mike D, but just remember, Joe Jackson Gibbs, the greatest coach of all time, above all those that you mentioned. I know Tom Brady's a quarterback, but the other ones.
14:39
Uh, Coach Brian, "Can we get a power ranking, no pun intended, on '90s cartoon action groups from Kelly? Where do the Rangers rank against, uh, Teenage M- Mutant Ninja Turtles, Voltron, Thundercats, G.I. Joe?"
14:50
The Turtles above every- above everything. Ah. Jesse Welch, "Incredible when, uh, Jonathan Vontobel comes straight in flying off the top rope with the Power Rangers facts. That was wild."
15:01
Okay, so this will make you feel a little better. Zack and JVT like used to have a lot of fun at making Pokemon references on, uh, Hardwood Handicappers that I didn't get at all.
15:10
[laughs] Do you remember that period where, like, people were running around town? Oh, y- yeah, yeah, yeah, with the app? I remember being in San Francisco. Yes, yes. Pick your street.
15:19
This is a dangerous- Polk, Union, Chestnut, whatever... dangerous time in history. And there were full-grown adults, and I'm talking about, like, old people- Yes... running around town searching for imaginary stuff.
15:32
I forget what it was, but you had to, like, you could see them on your phone. Like, through your camera would pop up, like, a Pokemon, like, in the corner of the studio, and you could ca- you had to catch it.
15:39
But I just remember asking- 'Cause you had to catch them all... I was like, I was like, "What are you doing?" He goes, "[laughs] I'm looking for..." I'm like, "What?" [laughs] It was, like, a whole thing.
15:46
Yeah, that, that was a scary, like, eight months in history. Yeah, yeah, it was. NC I-95 Gambler says, "Power Rangers, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles all being talked about is why we love a Numbers Game.
15:56
Finally insightful conversation." [laughs] Yes, I know. After all these years we finally got around to it. Thank you for that. Yeah.
16:03
Uh, Jason Weingarten joins us now courtesy of the, uh, I was gonna say the, uh, Teenage Power Music or whatever the hell I'm saying. [laughs] Uh, the, uh, courtesy of the Aggressive guest line.
16:11
He joins us from under a cloud of smoke in southern Cali. You go to the, uh, Dodgers, uh, Padres game the other night, Jason? I did. It was, uh, it was quite the experience.
16:22
Do you think that your Dodgers are toast tonight? No, but, uh, they sure aren't acting like, you know, a, a team that's supposed to be the, the best in baseball and the class of, of the league.
16:36
And been pretty, uh, pretty unimpressed with them the last week. It's, uh... I don't know. I'm, like, uh, just not impressed with them.
16:44
Taking, taking your Dodgers fanhood aside, if you could, for a moment, don't, don't you feel like the Padres are just a more well-balanced, uh, baseball team with no weakness whatsoever? No, not, not particularly.
16:57
I mean- Okay... I wouldn't, wouldn't go that far. Uh- Okay. 'Cause I, 'cause I would... like the Dodgers. I'm just saying, I would. I'm, you know. I, I'm not, I'm also not really a Dodgers fan. Okay. All right.
17:08
You know, but, but, uh, I think at the end of the day they've had some injuries. They're just, they're playing, they're playing down.
17:16
And I, I, like, I keep seeing all these comments about the Padres getting under their skin and doing this and that. I'm like, "You guys are supposed to be the best team in baseball. You should be above all this stuff.
17:24
Just go out there and play better." It's, it's kind of annoying to hear the same stuff over and over again. It's, you know, it's playoff baseball. Go out there and win or go home and get ready to go to Cancun.
17:36
You're not a Dodgers fan, really? No? Not really. I mean, I don't... I, I, I like going to Dodgers games, but I stopped being a Dodgers fan when, when I was... I wasn't even a teenager.
17:46
I was probably, like, 10 years old. They traded my favorite player, Mike Piazza. Wow. And I realized that this was a business and that being a fan, it's, it's kind of pointless.
17:56
And ever since then I realized that I'm just not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna commit to the Dodgers anymore 'cause they traded Mike Piazza. Are you, are you, are you betting them today? I have not bet them yet.
18:07
I don't know what I'm gonna do with that game. Uh, you know, it's, it's that weird playoff baseball where you, you fight the whole season, then you get here and Dodgers kind of fall flat on their butts again.
18:18
So it's kinda disappointing, but I don't know. I do- I really don't know what I'm gonna do with this last game. What about the rest of the day that, uh, precedes that on this baseball quadruple header today?
18:29
I got the Mets. Mets minus 113. Guardians even money. And no play yet on the Yankees, uh, Royals game. I can't Can't wrap my head around this Clarke Schmidt, Seth Lugo. Doesn't that feel...
18:43
I, I was saying earlier- They all scare me... that's the series that I just cannot grasp at this point. Like, you could tell me anything and I'd believe it. You too, for that whole series? Yeah.
18:53
Yeah, I guess I can't, can't really wrap my head around it. I, I wanna bet the Royals. Uh, not dying to, to run out there and bet it. I am, I am happy to bet the Mets today. I'm, I think they get it done.
19:04
Uh, wouldn't surprise me if Padres get it done, I'm just not dying to run out there and bet it. I also, I don't have a problem with bullpen games.
19:11
I think people see bullpen games and they're like, "This is stupid, I hate this." I actually love bullpen games, and I was thinking about it.
19:17
Like, Gil, if you come into work and they tell you, "You're just gonna be on the air all day till we decide to pull you," would you prefer that?
19:25
Or would you prefer you come in and they say, "Gil, you're on for two hours, and then this guy's on after you for two hours," and everybody has a schedule, everybody knows what they're expected to do.
19:35
I, I prefer to know what I'm expected to do. Yeah, I guess- Versus- I guess the counter to that, 'cause I, I'm all about it too, right? I'm fascinated by how the Tigers have taken this to the extreme, right?
19:45
They have two starting pitchers, and basically it's a mix and match with everything else. The counterargument is that that'll be fine during a regular season when you play lots of guys from the bullpen, right?
19:56
You can mix and match them. In the postseason, you have to really winnow that bullpen down to your best guys.
20:03
And so the counterargument is that's great for a game, that's maybe great for two games, but by the time the postsea- if you're lucky enough to advance in the postseason, you can't keep doing that. Sure.
20:15
I mean, and you don't wanna keep doing it, but you gotta do it when you gotta do it.
20:19
Today, you know, that's, that's what the Dodgers think their best path to victory is, so doesn't really bother me that they're going the bullpen route. You know, I, like I said, I prefer it.
20:28
As long as everybody knows what's expected of them ahead of time, then you can prepare for what you're supposed to do. And, you know, the Boy Scout motto, be prepared.
20:36
Like, it's, it's all about, you know, showing up prepared as opposed to coming out of the bullpen hot. But- Hey, Gil, do we get five days off after we do this marathon show, though? Like, you know- [laughs] Yeah. Yeah...
20:46
let me start. Uh, I, I kinda like the schedule setup Jason's throwing out there. I really do. I'll do that. Yeah. I was just gonna say, what would you, would you prefer doing it all day?
20:52
I'm like, "I would not prefer doing it all day." [laughs] Uh, let me just ask you about the Mets thing, 'cause you, you've run baseball models when you were picking for years. Um, you do things by numbers.
21:03
When it comes to a team like the Mets, is part of it just sort of this unquantifiable baseball magic thing where it's like you, you know, y- you normally the people who are numbers-based don't buy into something like that.
21:19
Do you, at this time of year, like a team like that that just seems to be touched by the, by the heavens? Not totally.
21:29
You know, I mean, they've definitely been playing better as the season goes on, but a lot of that stuff ends up being reflected in the underlying statistics and everything.
21:37
So you know, you, you just kinda, you take note of the teams that play well, you take note of the teams that play bad.
21:43
But you know, it's, it's just baseball, and that's the thing at the end of the day is guy goes out and throws a pitch, another guy goes out and hits the ball, and sometimes the thing you want to happen happens, and sometimes it doesn't.
21:53
It's, it's different in other sports to that regard is that sometimes you do everything right and you still don't win, and there's just nothing you can do about it at the end of the day.
22:02
It's, it's unfortunate, but you know, you play the whole season and you end up in an elimination game in the beginning of October one way or the other.
22:09
What, what would you make a hypothetical Padres-Mets NLCS series price? Mets would be favored. Uh, with- Mets? The Mets would be favored. Oh, no, I'm sorry. Sorry, the Padres would be favored. Oh, I was gonna say. Okay.
22:20
Yeah, I, I, I got that backwards, yeah. Yes. Caught, caught myself there. And what are we ta- [laughs] What are, what are we talking, like a, how big of a favorite in your opinion? Dollar, uh, minus 140 maybe.
22:31
Maybe- Minus 140. Hmm... 45, 35, somewhere between there. All right. Jason, enjoy the day, man. Good luck. Thank you. Remember, yes score all first innings today. Yes score- Okay... all first innings. Let's go.
22:44
I like how he does it on the way out. [laughs] One, one more thing. Uh, Dean Sisson from Prophet, sweepstakes betting next. A Numbers Game on VSiN, the sports betting network.
22:56
Back on The Numbers Game, live from Circa, Gil Alexander on a, uh, Wednesday. Zach and Crack tomorrow on the show, of course.
23:04
Uh, uh, always like it when we, uh, do something a little different or, or when there's something in town, like a Bet Bash, like a G2E, which is going on currently.
23:12
Uh, on The Numbers Game, we've been real fortunate 'cause folks like to just roll in on the show, and I'm, I'm always super grateful about that. Today is one of those days.
23:20
Uh, Spanky coming up with Sean Fluharty next to talk about, uh, the bettors voice.
23:23
First, though, a gentleman who has been on the show several times before, and anxious to have him on again because this is pretty fascinating thing, uh, pretty fascinating development in sports betting.
23:34
It is Dean Sisson, the CEO and founder of Prophet X, who joins us now live in studio. How you doing, man? Good to be back. Good to, good to have you. Can we go back to the beginning?
23:45
[laughs] 'Cause I know there's a lot of people are like, "All right, what's this? I have no idea what he's talking about." Let's go back to the beginning before we get to what you're doing now. Yep.
23:52
How did Prophet begin, and why? Way back to the beginning. Um, six, seven years ago, uh, my co-founder and I had an idea to, I'll call it liquidate sports bets, meaning you have a future bet.
24:10
You bet on the Royals earlier in the year, now they're doing well. Their odds increase in value. You can cash out of that position at a better price by selling it to someone else. That was the initial idea.
24:20
Uh, moved to London to, to do that. Thought the regulatory waters were a lot easier. It was a lot cheaper out there. At the time in the US, PASPA, while we were ideating on this, wasn't repealed.
24:33
Moved to the UK, built out some traction. Quickly learned that it wasn't a scalable enough product- Mm-hmm...
24:40
and that people just wanted to use our product to get better odds or better prices and then request their own prices. Which then led us to the exchange concept. It's popular abroad.
24:51
We saw that Betfair and Smarkets and, and other players like Matchbook were doing really well, and we said, "Why can't we just do that in the US?" Um, so then that led us to come to the US.
25:01
We, uh, launched in New Jersey as our test market.
25:05
They were very open to having a conversation, I will say, the, the regulators over there, about, um, what an exchange is and how it'll benefit their state and, and the overall betting market out there.
25:17
So we launched that in the regulated market. That took a long time- By the way, let me, let me just interrupt. Yeah.
25:22
I was gonna say, you're, you're, you're very nonchalant about how you were even able to become that, right? [laughs] Yeah. That was, that was hard, right? Very hard. Yeah. Very, very hard. Um, it took a lot of capital.
25:31
It took a lot of time. We had a very small team. I mean, we were, what, 12 people at the time, uh, working on this, where other teams were 100 at least plus.
25:42
I mean, FanDuel, DraftKings have thousands of employees, right? So it was a very tall order. We were live there for about two years, and I'll say we did well,
25:54
not exceptional, but good enough to the point where I said, "Wow, this is working. People like this. People want this." Um, but our biggest pain point was we couldn't grow quickly enough in other states, right?
26:06
Um, no one was willing to listen to us like New Jersey was, and then when you pile in the time it would take to move into each state, you pile in the fees that it takes to get into each state, it was just,
26:18
uh, a bit of a roadblock, a bit of a catch-22, where we couldn't bring this product to as many places as we wanted to and grow as quickly as we wanted to, so we had to make a switch. And ProfitX is the switch.
26:28
ProfitX, from, from, from Profit Exchange to ProfitX. Yes. Yes. Um, because it's interesting. Again, this was, in New Jersey it was Profit and it was Sporttrade. Yep. Sporttrade.
26:38
And we've, uh, had Alex Kane, their CEO, was on the panel. He's been on the show as well. Um, they're, they're recent advertisers. They were once an exchange also. They are not anymore, right?
26:49
They're, they're kind of like a low vig sportbook, sportsbook now. A bit of, yeah, a bit of a hybrid. I know that Colorado and New Jersey want or allow for, uh, requesting prices. They do.
27:00
They're in four states now, I believe. Soon to be five. We're in 40. You're in 40. So- So now explain that. [laughs] So okay. So your pivot was, uh, that's 40. He said four zero. Yeah. Let's get to that. Yeah.
27:11
So this is what falls under the category of sweepstakes betting. Please explain- Correct... this to everybody. Yeah. Sweepstakes is its own separate category. So
27:22
it wasn't meant to be for casinos and sportsbooks and bingo sites and poker sites, right? Sweepstakes have been around for hundreds of years. Um, you know, you'd think of a typical sweepstakes like McDonald's. Um,
27:36
no purchase necessary to enter. Like, you've probably heard that a million times- Sure... right? Sure. Um- There have been documentaries on this kind of thing. Correct. Correct. Yes. Um,
27:45
you can win a car, uh, if you enter into the sweepstakes, and to increase your chances of winning the car, you can buy a hamburger or buy a Big Mac, right? Mm-hmm. That's, that's the very high-level concept of this.
27:59
Um, and 13, 14 years ago, casinos figured out that they can apply that model to, uh, social casinos. So Chumba Casino, Stake, there are other big popular platforms that do this.
28:13
Poker sites started popping up, and a few years ago a sportsbook popped up, and I looked at it and I said, "What in the world is this? How is this fair game?" And when you look into sweepstakes law,
28:25
um, I think the best way to think of it is form over, over substance, where it looks and kind of feels like similar betting products, but underneath the surface it is not.
28:34
It is qualified as a sweepstakes platform by law, which in short basically allows you to, um, operate in a lot more states.
28:43
I'm making it sound a lot more easier than it actually is and a lot less complicated than it is, but that's the extremely high-level summary of what sweepstakes is. We're talking about real money here. Real money. Yeah.
28:53
Real money. Yeah. So half of the site is free to play. So you come in, you open up the app, you can play for free, practice your strategy, whatever you wanna do.
29:04
Um, and then the other half of the app is the sweepstakes side, right? So when you come onto the app, you're
29:10
buying points on the free-to-play side and then getting a, like an equal bonus in cash, um, in profit cash, and then once you hit our requirements or play through that bonus cash, then you can redeem it for USD.
29:25
That's basically how it works. And you go on the site and it looks and feels like our exchange product because it is our exchange product. Which will be familiar to people because it looks like a sportsbook, basically.
29:35
It does. It does. Yeah. I mean, you go on a lot of these products, um, you go on Chumba Casino, it looks like iGaming, right? You go on, um, the other sportsbook competitors, it looks like a sportsbook.
29:46
It's definitely different, you can tell, but it looks and feels like it, so there is that sense of familiarity, and that was our goal when we relaunched.
29:53
We wanted to have that sense of familiarity without being obviously identical, um, to be qualified under sweepstakes law, which we are. So, um, but all in all, I'm, I'm, I'm happy with it. It's going well. Yeah.
30:06
Um, obviously it's a lot better being in 40 states. There are some new educational challenges with being a sweepstakes exchange. If- Mm-hmm...
30:14
as if as an exchange wasn't hard enough, now you throw sweepstakes in that and it gets a little more challenging. But- But just a, just a riff on, on the fact that it, it still is an exchange, right? Correct.
30:23
Like, you can name your price. Correct. Yes. Which- You do all the same things... so that carries over. Yes. And this is available in states that don't have... And we're talking about the big ones. California- Yeah...
30:34
Texas, Florida. Yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, let me just ask you a, a... Go ahead, finish what you were saying. I was gonna actually- I was gonna say sadly not Nevada, but yeah, a lot of the- Not Nevada. Yes.
30:45
As, as we learned the hard way. As we're sitting here. Yeah. Yeah. We're try- I was like, "No, not here." [laughs] Um, and what does that have to do with... Just Nevada's very strict on stuff like that?
30:53
I'll say, without going into too much detail, like the way the, the laws are written in each state- Yeah... right? And they, and they wanna- Nevada's definitely pretty strict...
31:00
and they wanna protect what they have- Exactly... kind of thing. Um, what about that, by the way?
31:04
What about, have you, have you gotten any, uh, static, uh, you know, not even in any real way, but for, but just from, from casino operators who are like, "Ah, look at them. Sweepstakes, ah."
31:16
And what do you make of that if you have? Does that mean they're a little threatened by it or? Yeah, I, um, I think so. Yeah. First of all.
31:23
Second of all, the big argument against sweepstakes is it's not regulated, right? So is my money safe? Um, can I get my money out? The, the answer to that, I guess, because we were a regulated platform, right?
31:34
We know the policies and procedures that we need to have in place to be, you know, a very safe place to play. Um, I don't know. I'm, I'm still struggling with how exactly we advertise that- Yeah... all the time, right?
31:47
But, like, you know, you just, you just have to trust us. We were- [laughs]... a regulated product. Yes. We know what we're doing. We're not a, a, a completely inexperienced team, but I get why customers, um, have that,
31:58
uh, sentiment towards sweepstakes sites. So I think that's where, you know, I see a lot of the, the fear and, uh, I'll say, like, hearsay come from people on social media- Yeah... about sweepstakes sites.
32:11
Well, I know from people who have used it, they have had nothing, and I'm, I'm just saying, I'm being honest, nothing but a spectacular experience with it. Yeah. Um, the prices are better- Yeah...
32:21
than normal sports books. The ease, uh, with which they can, uh, with a draw is there. Mm-hmm. So it's, it really, I mean, and it really kind of checks the boxes. It does check the boxes.
32:35
It's also obviously easier to use, right? Right. Because we're in 40 states. A lot of our customers- Oh... now said, "I love how I can go from
32:42
Pennsylvania to, uh, Missouri and, [laughs] and I can still use your site," right? Still use it. Yeah.
32:48
Like, that, that was a lot of the reason why we had so many customers churn out last time, is that they took a vacation, they couldn't use it, right? Yeah. Um, but yeah, the experience has been a lot better.
32:57
We have a lot more customers. Last night, Mets-Phillies was -105, +104 on the money line, which is obviously awesome for people listening to this, right? Yes. They, they know [laughs] that's incredible. They know.
33:09
Um, but yeah, everything's been good. Dean Sis and everybody- I'm excited... from Prophet X, where should they go for all the information about this? Yeah, you can go to prophetx.co to check it out.
33:16
Um, we have a landing page as well. You can download the app. We're in the App Store or the Google Play Store. Um, hell, you can DM me on LinkedIn if you really want to. Okay. Um, but yeah- Dean Sis and-...
33:26
I'm happy to answer anything... S-I-S-U-N. This is all through app or, or web-based as well? Both. Both. Yep. Okay. prophetx.co. That's Prophet, P-R-O-P-H-E-T. Thank you, Dean. Appreciate it, man. You got it.
33:38
Thanks for having me on. Coming back with Spanky and Sean Fluharty, Bettor's Voice, next on The Numbers Game. [upbeat music] The Numbers Game on VSiN, the sports betting network.
33:56
Don't forget, coming up at the top of the hour after Numbers Game, Stormy's back, Stormy with Matt Brown on Money Moves, noon to 2:00 PM Eastern, followed by Prop Points with John Hanson, and then Make It Rain with Adam Shine.
34:08
That is your VSiN schedule. The sports betting network coming up after the show. Uh, last few tweets, we got a whole bunch, but I just wanna read, uh, just a couple of these or f- or four of these.
34:17
Uh, Eddie Vegan Runner saying, uh, "Wonder Twins power activate." [laughs] In terms of what I grew up on, he's, he's actually very right. Uh, Edward Lefevre, "Gil, Jason not a Dodger fan?
34:26
What's next, Gil never rooted for Washington? What are we doing here?" Yeah, I'm with you. He's like, "He's the biggest Dodger homer I know. Come on."
34:32
Brian Schaefer, uh, "Man, Jason mistakenly saying the Mets were the favorites in the possible Mets-Padres series. Uh, I almost went to the bank and take out a huge amount of equity on my house to bet the Padres."
34:41
Me too, man. And then, uh, I can't read that one. Oh, and then Ryan Thompson saying, "Yes, it was very smart of Manny Machado on the base paths." I completely agree.
34:50
Uh, again, always nice when there's a conference in town.
34:52
G2E is in town, and so, uh, Spanky kind enough to, uh, hang out with us, the creator of BetBash, and one of the gentlemen who was kind enough to, uh, be on the Billy Walters panel, if you will, with me.
35:03
Not only was, uh, Alex Kane from, uh, SportsTrade on there, but Sean Fluharty, a West Virginia legislator, was on there as well, and he comes in his capacity as president of, uh, NICLGEES.
35:15
Can you, uh, explain what that is?
35:16
National Council of Legislators from Gaming States, Gil, and we're comprised of legislators throughout the country and focusing on gaming regulations and gaming laws, and, uh, was out at BetBash, had a great panel with yourself.
35:26
Thanks for hosting that, and Spanky gave me the invite.
35:29
And, you know, we're talking about the bettor's angle now that, that Spanky is working with The Bettor's Voice to kind of bring, uh, that angle to the table, which wasn't there previously, which we talked about, and I'm sure we'll get into today, but- Yeah...
35:39
yeah. You know, I, I wear several hats. I'm a lawmaker from the state of West Virginia.
35:42
I'm head of government affairs for online supplier Play'n GO, so I've been in the gaming regulation, the gaming space, and created...
35:48
And we passed sports betting back in 2018, prior to pass, but even being overturned in West Virginia.
35:53
So we were kind of one of those states, uh, from the very beginning, and we're continuing to move along and do well in our state and hoping that we can have a good format throughout the country.
36:01
Yeah, I, this, and, uh, I do wanna get into it because this is, you know, Numbers Game listeners, um, there's a, there's a good percentage who have had the experience of being limited at sports books, and so this is perfect that you're here, 'cause every once in a while w- we should do something like this.
36:16
And that was Spanky who rolled in here, I'm told, in a Mini Cooper. [laughs] I gotta see that. Yeah.
36:22
Well, you know, the, the rental car place, um, was a two-hour wait, so, um, yeah, I had to go to another rental car place, and they only had one car left. And unfortunately, uh- [laughs]...
36:31
it was a Mini Cooper, and I, I asked the lady, "Am I gonna fit in this thing?" And, uh, she looked up and down. She goes, "Yeah, I think you'll be all right," but- His size, no...
36:38
she go, "Yeah, but, uh, it's not all right, Gil. I gotta, like, sneak in, you know?" Yeah. [laughs] "Bend over." But it is what it is, man. Uh, Spanky, who has, uh, Spank Odds and the podcast- B-Betta Bettors...
36:49
which is out how many times a week or- Oh, yeah... what, it's a month? Yeah. You know, that's been a couple times a year at this point. [laughs] Yeah. It's been, it's, put it on the shelf.
36:56
But I'll, I'll, I'll probably release an episode soon. It's whenever I'm feeling it But this, this, this topic that we're talking about here, uh, Betters Voice, this is- You're very passionate about this. Yes.
37:06
Myself, Richard Shutts, we have a big staff with us, um, an, um, un- unbelievable board, and Sean has given us, um, the, uh, the platform at Nickel G's to kind of launch the American Betters Voice, bettersvoice.com.
37:19
And that's, you know, just try to give betters a voice at the table, um, to try to, um, promote fairness and equity when it comes to any regis- legislation or, or regulation that gets passed.
37:30
And, um, you know, the, all these, um, you know, regulators, legislators, they're only hearing things from the operator's point of view- Yeah...
37:36
and they never hear it from the bettor's point of view, and I think that, that fundamental fairness, um, needs to be exhibited going forward. So Sean, I, I...
37:43
When we were on the p- when, you know, Billy Walters was the, obviously the star of the panel at BetBash, um, but you were, you were great on there, and I, I did sort of...
37:53
I, I didn't push back, but I sort of gave you the skep- You can come at me... the s- oh, yeah.
37:56
[laughs] The, the, the skeptical sort of reaction was, you know, most betters, and I think that, that was true of the, of the folks who were in that room at the time is, most betters are pretty, pretty cynical at this point.
38:08
Sure. Right? Like, they're like, "Oh, it's never, ne- nothing ever really goes our way. It's all about, you know, uh, gaming and operators perhaps even working together." You see it differently.
38:19
You really believe that this, that there is a voice to be had here. I do, and I get the skepticism about politics in general and, and I completely understand that.
38:26
However, I'll say where this started, where my interest grew, was I had a bettor reach out to me in West Virginia after we had already passed sports betting, and he had an issue with not being able to deduct losses because our original legislation did not include that.
38:39
And as, you know, a legislator, I listen to... What's the number one goal of legislators? Is to get reelected, so they're gonna listen to you when people- Yes... reach out, right?
38:45
So- You didn't even, you didn't even know that this was a thing, right?
38:48
I understood the federal side of things and, and how it was available, but not at the state level, and it wasn't included in our original legislation.
38:54
And nobody, to Spanky's point of what they're trying to bring to the table, was reaching out and saying, "Hey, this is, this should be part of the leg- legislation." Yeah.
39:00
So as Spanky has said, you kind of get the one angle because they have the lobbyists, they have the ear of legislators, and they have the ability to come into, uh, to legislative halls and talk to legislators.
39:10
But because an individual reached out to me in West Virginia and we corrected it, we went back in, fixed the law, and going forward, and actually made it, uh, retroactive so it apply, uh, that you could deduct your losses.
39:20
And that's just one example, but the point being was I thought to myself, "Wait a minute. This is just one example of an individual who reached out to me via email. What else is going on?"
39:28
And I, I got, uh, introduced to Spanky, and we talked about allowing him to come to Nickel G's and giving him the platform to kind of, you know, give that voice.
39:36
And, and as we talked about at BetBash, this is a very important point. So at BetBash, I asked the audience, "Raise your hand if you've been limited." Everybody put their hand up, you know, "Me, me, me." Yeah.
39:46
And then when I said, "Raise your hand if you reached out to your local legislator about being limited," not a single hand went up. Maybe one or two.
39:53
Because, because the average bettor or, or any bettor wouldn't even think that that's- That's right... that that's something that's possible- Yeah. There's an education gap... to affect change. Sure. Yeah.
40:01
There's an education gap with lawmakers. There's an education gap with, with the sports betters in general to understand how these things work and the importance of reaching out to your local legislators.
40:10
And I had somebody at the audience say, "You know, I reached out at the federal level." Well, that's, that's not doing you a whole lot of good. You have to actually reach out to your local legislator.
40:17
And, and Spanky has done a great job of putting that platform together, kind of a, a how-to guide for individuals who are concerned about this. Where do they go for that?
40:25
So bettersvoice.com, we have a link to be able to reach out to every regulator in every state, um, if there's something, any gripe that you have. But, you know, right now our main focus is on limiting.
40:35
Um, we, you know, we, we're privileged to, to be invited by the Massachusetts Gaming Control Board.
40:40
My colleague Richard Shutts, um, was able to speak at that conference on open table, op- open round table on, um, on bet limiting.
40:48
Um, I've been invited and, and my colleagues to be able to speak at, um, next month, um, in Wyoming, um, for the regulators there. So we're starting to make inroads now. People are listening.
40:57
You know, the, um, another, uh, important, you know, I wanna shout out Tom Sage at the SBRA, the Sports Betting Regulators Association.
41:04
We were able to give presentations and, you know, to, you know, 80 regulators just on a sports betting 101 class we had. Um, my colleague, uh, um, Adam, was able to do that.
41:13
And then, you know, we're, we're slowly starting to make inroads because a- as Sean said, a lot of, there's a lot of lack of education with these regulators, so we're trying to make sure that they understand not just what's happening with the whole limiting thing, but what, you know, how bookmakers, what, what the whole landscape is and, and- But, but you see, as you're saying that, that's, and that was the other thing that came up in the panel, that's the amazing part for those of us who are immersed in sports betting every day.
41:37
I, I think that our default, we would have assumed that regulators know the industry, and what we learn is that there is a large percentage of regulators, maybe the majority, that don't know anything.
41:50
Exactly, because they're, they're coming from the casino side, you know? So sports betting was, is still relatively new. Right.
41:56
They just think that, okay, casino, you're, you're guaranteed to make money, everybody's okay, where sports betting is a market-based business where there are winners and losers.
42:04
And, um, and book- you know, it, you can't treat casino games and sports betting the exact same way, and I think there's...
42:10
We're trying to bridge that education gap and have people understand that it's okay to have winning customers in the sports betting business as long as the sport- a bookmaker like Circa here knows how to utilize that winning customer's information- Yeah...
42:22
to make more money for the house.
42:24
And that, that to me is the, that, that's the biggest sort of obstacle to begin with, is that because you understand if re- if regulators, if regulators don't know the business, they're going to by nature default to the casino side of things.
42:34
Exactly. It's all in the information available. Yes. So- And the information- He, he hasn't been in the hallways of legislat- legislatures yet. He will be. But point being, uh, they regulate the entire industry as well.
42:44
It's not like they're limited to just sports betting, just iGaming. They are regulating lottery, iLottery, whatever's on the books of a state, so it's a very complex issue. Big umbrella. Yeah. And regulators...
42:55
And they do a great job, SBRA in particular, but only the information they have available to them, so if the information is only being given to them from one side, then there's this natural progression, there's this, this, this gap that has to be filled with new information, and that's, and that's the issue that they're facing.
43:10
And it's not until now with Spanky kind of spearheading Betters Voice that that's been available.
43:14
And so questions like this that we've gotten, Mike Stacks, uh, "What can a person do when they tell the sportsbook, uh, you know, that when they closed my account a few years ago, then when I wanna play again, they tell you once it's closed, you're done, and you can't reopen it ever.
43:26
What can those people do?"
43:28
Uh, and another question, uh, was also about, oh, specifically in the state of New Hampshire, um, you know, folks talking about their specific jurisdictions, "What can we do to have more competition than just DraftKings?"
43:40
Those kinds of questions can all be addressed where you guys are. Yeah, just reach out to let, a regulator, legislator. Again, our links are on, um, um, bettersvoice.com.
43:48
You know, the one thing is a lot of people say a business should be able to operate in, in any way it wants, but th- these are privileged licenses. Yes.
43:55
So these are limited privileged licenses, which means there must be a fundamental fairness. All people should be treated eq- eq- you know, treated equally. That's just, this is America.
44:03
Um, they might do England, you know, when, um, they kick people out and then give them, you know, $1.37. This is unheard of in Nevada, and it's unheard of until these, you know, you know, European invasion came across.
44:15
I always say this is a European invasion, but not the good kind like The Beatles. Um, it's terrible, and, what's going on, so, um, we'll try to change that.
44:21
They can reach you, okay, bettersvoice.com, Spanky on Twitter, and Sean, yours on Twitter is? @wvflu. Let's go Mountaineers. wvflu. [laughs] Sean Fluharty, Spanky, thanks for listening.
44:32
Money Moves next at VSAN, the Sports Betting Network.
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